Vitamin K and Hep B vaccination

[Narelle]

Hi Guys!
I was just wondering what everyones views were on Vitamin K and Hep B vaccination? and did your baby have the injections? I have to sign a consent form on Monday and I just wanted to get some opinions. Also, if anyone wants to comment on other vaccinations that come later down the track I would love to see what you have to say! Everyone I know has had all vaccinations as I'm sure I will but you do hear some bad stories. Thanks!

[Ffrenchstar]

We personally dont vaccinate our children (well DS#1 was partially done until we really researched the issue and decided not to do anymore.) There are heaps of reasons both for and against and it is a decision only you and your family can make. Without going into it too much, for me, it is the ingredients and the "unknown/known" long term health effects that are a worry as well as the effect vaccine has on the immune system as a whole. I also believe that there are plenty of ways to ensure a healthy body and strong immune system and I put a huge amount of effort into my families health.

If we did vaccinate, the hep B at birth would not be one that we would choose. I think it is harmful and unneccessary to inject all those chemicals, cells and microbes into a newborn straight from the womb for a disease that most babies would never be exposed to. Alot of doctors will tell you that it isn't neccessary. They started doing it in hospital as a way of "not missing anyone" if you know what I mean. There is quite a bit of info on the net about the Vitamin K as well.

No matter what you decide, I think it is really important to read read read! Read lots and lots of info. from both sides of the fence. Both sides use scare tactics to make you see their point of view but I think once you read enough you'll be informed enough to make the right decision for your family.

It is such a hard decision to make and one that we certainly didn;t make lightly. As long as you are making an informed choice then you are doing the right thing, whether you vax or not. We all want to make the right decisions for our precious children.

Good luck with your decision :)

[Izzys'mum]

Hi Narelle,

I have a 7mth old baby girl she has had vit k and other injections weve never had any problems with her having temperatures and being sick after having them. I'd rather her have the injections to decrease the risk of her falling sick with some of the awful diseases that are present. When it comes down to it if she got sick i know that at least i had tried to help prevent it. Good luck with what ever you decide, im sure you will make the right choice for your baby!

[WeThree]

my children all had them and were fine, no temperatures, whingeness or anything. (although subsequent vaccinations have made them all irritable for short periods of time) (although im a bit on the fence with this one, my husband is against vaccinations) anyway i do not know of anyone who had problems, and i htink any would only be minor and probably nothing compared to what would happen if your child did contract any of those diseases

[mumof2girls]

My children had all of their immunisations and never had any problems. One of the reasons some diseases have been eradicated is due to immunisation (small pox etc). It is a personal choice look & read all the information you possibly can from both sides of the fence. When you next go to the hospital go up to the children's wards (young babies/children) and see some of the effect that these diseases can have. I'm with coopsntilly's mum, any side affect should be minimal to what can happen should they get the disease.

[Tannie]

Our daughter has started and will be fully vaccinated and we had no problem with her having Vit K at birth. We read up about all this too prior to birth and couldn't find any good reasons to not vaccinate.

The benefits of vaccination to us FAR outweigh the miniscule risks of any of the rare severe complications from vaccinations............we'd never forgive ourselves if she contracted one of the preventable diseases and suffered as a result. We also believe that it is in the best interests of our entire community / society that vaccination levels be maintained as high as possible.
A few jabs and maybe a bit of crankiness for 24hrs is nothing compared to suffering one of these infections.........
An adult friend of mine just had whooping cough, was terribly sick, the most awful thing and was SO pleased her 13 month old son had been vaccinated on time or he may have gotten it......don't kid yourself - children die and/or suffer needlessly in Australia every year from these so called "simple" preventable infections.
When I was in late primary school, a friend of our family's son (I think he was about my age) died from contracting measles...........believe me - it happens :(

I guess it's your choice though........but.........would the World Health Organisation really endorse vaccination if it was so terrible? and would polio & smallpox have been eradicated without it? Do we really want to go back to the days of diptheria, tetanus and polio?? It's no mystery why we don't have our children dying of these diseases............vaccinations :)

[Ffrenchstar]

Tannie, I just hope you understand that we all have our (very valid) reasons why we do and do not vaccinate. There is alot more to vaccination than what the doctors tell you and alot more involved in the eradication of disease. I just hope that you respect everyones right to choose what chemicals they put in their bodies.

[Kassiasmum]

Hi there,
I agree that it is totally a personal choice and only one that you and your husband can make. My sil did not vaccinate, we did. We didn't do the hep b at birth but started at 3 months, with the vit k we gave that to our daughter orally. We have had no problems after vaccinations.
Just make sure that you and your husband make the decision together and that it is what you guys want to do, not what everyone else thinks.
Tracey

[Elfin]

I am pro immunisation but agree with T&M's Mum that you should be fully informed and research all the vaccinations before making a decision about what you feel is right for your family.

All my children have had Vitamin K and there we had no problems with that vaccination. DS and DD1 did not have the Hep B vaccination at birth as this was not routinely offered when they were born unless you were in a high risk group. However, DD2 did have the vaccination for Hep B and I regret this to an extent and feel that I didn't do my research properly. JMO but unless you are in a high risk group I am not sure if this is entirely necessary at birth as it is incorporated into the 2, 4 and 6 month schedules anyway. I feel with this one I just jumped in and said yes and felt I should have done more research. However, I am glad she has been vaccinated against hep b but I am not sure if the vaccination was necessary for her at birth. Hope that makes sense :o

We didn't have any problems with the vaccination or anything like that but I have worried whether or not we gave her a vaccination that wasn't neccessay. Just like the pneumoccal vacination that has just been added to the schedule we are opting not to get this one as I don't believe we are in a high risk group for this disease. All the others we have had. I guess my bottom line is I don't want to put my children at risk of diseases that are preventable that is why we vaccinate. I can remember people who have suffered from polio and it is not nice.

Any good luck with your decision :)

[mamafelix]

I'm another one who believes in doing your research first! I totally respect whatever decision people make, I know a lot of people who don't vax, and a lot who do.

We did vaccinate Felix, but started at 6 months (and delayed all his vax by this much), so missed the hep B at birth (as we are not in a high risk group- remembering this is a disease that is contracted through sexual/blood contact), and we did the vitamin K orally- where the bub gets 3 doses through the mouth rather than an injection. Basically because I didn't like the idea of such a small baby having needles/pain.

I think for this one I may give the vit K a miss althougher, unless it is a traumatic birth (which is a risk factor for the disease that vit K prevents). I will be investigate this more closer to the birth- I've heard that if you're breastfeeding you can increase you're own levels of vit K by eating loads of, alflafa? I think- and pass it on this way.

Felix did react to all of his needles with crankyness/fever, so I was glad I waited a bit till he was older amd I guess better able to deal with that.
I think it's probably worthwhile to consider whether your child is likely to be exposed to disease (for example going to daycare or overseas) before you decide.

[patella]

Hi Narelle, It is such a big question. Before having my child in 2003 i elected not to have the Vitamin K - wherupon changed my opinion when the circumstances changed - ended up having an emergency caesar...

As far as Hep B goes though - I can't understand why a newborn baby would need it - it is a disease transmitted via blood to blood contact - So it depends on whether you are around the hi-risk groups - druggies etc. In addition as it worked out I didn't expose her to the general public for a good 4 weeks. The reason being is to get her immature system acclimated to just being in the world - she has come from a sterile & safe environment and I thought to give her time to adjust. Basically, I didn't like the thought of injecting foreign material into her system so soon after birth.

At the time baby was born, I was living in Sydney. As for other immunisations on offer, I read, read, read & spoke to 2 general practitioners, a homeopath and a naturopath to get a variety of professional opinions. I came away with the opinion that i would vaccinate for whooping cough - however this is only offered as a triple (with tetanus & diptheria) so had them all. I delayed this as far as i felt i wanted to "risk"it. I will not vaccinate for other diseases. All the Best.

[xkwzit]

Hi Narelle
I think it's important to understand that a vit K injection is NOT a vaccination. Babies are given this injection as Vit K helps to prevent some blood related disease (I think, its been a while since I did my reading!). Their bodies will eventually start making their own vit K, but not for several months. There is no virus in Vit K injection to prompt your baby to produce antibodies, like there is in a vaccination.

We chose to have vit K at birth but NOT the Hep B for both our babies. I didn't want to subject our newborn to a vaccination until we'd established breast feeding, as one of the things they tell you to do if baby has a fever etc is give lots of fluids (could be *really* difficult). We talked to our paed about it, as we were prepared to bring her back in a few weeks for it, but his veiw was that it isn't necessary as a baby will be fully immunised if you follow the remainder of the schedule WITHOUT the newborn shot. This injection is really only needed for babies who live in a high risk household, who may be exposed to Hep B before the 2 month shot. And hey, if you can save your baby one jab, I think that's worth it, provided that eventually you wind up with the same protection.

Despite not having that one vaccination, both our children are fully immunised (with a few extra vaccinations) and we've never had any problems. But it isn't a simple issue (I think even doctor's opinions differ) so do your research, ask questions and ensure that your decision is one that you believe in. Most of us are very passionate about our choices and you deserve that too.

Best of luck

[Mother Duck]

Hello all

We had (after huge and agonising researching and not wanting to) Mickayla immunised and so far she has been fine with it. (mummy is the one that hurt's the most!)

We opted for Hep B straight away because I work and Mickayla spends alot of time in an Indigenous Community where Hep B is a higher risk.

Congratulations to all of you - I am whole-heartedly with the concept of researching, in this day and age it is a big shame to make uninformed decisions just because someone (be they health official or other) tells you to.

Either decision is to be respected - particulary if an informed decision - one that parents feel is right for their bub!

T&M's mum - While I accept and respect your decision as a loving parent, I think that the 'herding affect' is very much a factor worth noting. Lots of children to parents like yourself who chose not to immunise are protected by those that do. This can mask the very real risk of these diseases returning to our society. As some others have said, anyone that has seen victims of polio etc would most likely immunise.

At the end of the day - no matter how much info you gather - either decision is bloody hard.

Good luck in your decision!

[Ffrenchstar]

HI Jessie

Uh oh, I went to edit something here and I deleted a whole paragraph...it was something like...Why do you need to tell me about the herding effect :confused: I feel like I always need to defend myself and choices someting something something
I believe that all the diseases we vaccinate against had been almost erradicated BEFORE vaccines came along and supposedly "saved us." The charts that are shown to medical students start just prior to the 1960's when vaccinations were introduced. If you look at charts that date before this (say 100 years) it shows a HUGE decline in disease due to improved hygeine and living standards. Diseases like scarlet fever and Typhoid fever died out without the use of vaccines. Are you aware that the only recent cases of polio have been actually CAUSED BY THE VACCINE ITSELF? (before they stopped using the live vaccine.) It is only recently that they have realised putting mercury in vaccine is a bad thing - so they have taken it out. What else are they going to discover over the next few years - after something bad happens?? I would rather not be part of the experiment.

I believe that vaccine actually compromises the immune system rather than helping it and I believe that alot of long term problems (cancer etc.) are caused by the chemicals and the effect they have on the body. It is true that cancer and oter diseases have shown up since the introduction of vaccine, anti-biotics, fluoride and the routine use of chemicals and pesticides in food.
I also worry about the relationship vaccines has with SIDS.
Probably my biggest concern is the ingredients - both chemical and biological. I dont feel comfortable injecting aluminium, mercury and formaldehyde into my children, nor do I like the idea of the monkey DNA, chick embryo cells and human aborted foetus diploid cells.

I also believe that the body has an amazing ability to fight off disease if nurtured and taken care of. I spend a HUGE amount of time and effort cooking organic food for my family, using NO chemical cleaning or hygeine products, getting regular exercise and clean water, getting enough rest and building up the body with Homeopathic treatments. This, to me is way more important in the prevention of disease than vaccination.

Childhood disease plays an important role in strenghthening the body and the immune system. As I am sure you are aware, immuntiy from vaccination does not always occur. It also does not last forever. Once you give a child that first shot, you are then relying on them as they become adults to get booster shots. How many adults do you know who are even aware if they are immune to diptheria, whooping cough?? Immuntiy is not for life from artificail immunisation therefore, isn;t there a responsibility to vaccinate adults as well. This I do not understand.

Therefore, I do not believe in the herd theory. I dont think that the general population are doing me any favours by vaccinating their children.

I TOTALLY understand why people do vaccinate - as I said my oldest son is partially done and we agonised over the decision for a long time. I would never try to tell anyone not to vaccinate, it is totally a personal choice, one that is not made lightly. I understand the reasons to vaccinate and I have just stated mine not to.

Thanks

[Lucybelle]

The Hep B is ridiculous at birth - or in older kids. Jessie I understand your situation though. The Hep B only lasts until the are 6 years old anyway.
Toby@Millars mum, I am total agreement with you. Also note **there is no safe level of formaldehyde recommended for a living body*** this was from the SA govt. Why on earth there was/is Mercury and formaldehyde in the vacc is beyond belief.
Also note that the govt continues to use this old stock containing these products even though has been declared unfit to use.
Do a search on the Austalian Vaccination Network www.avn etc. This will give a clearer picture for both sides of the argument.

[Narelle]

Thankyou everyone! for your opinion.
I am still not sure what to do as it is a tough decision.
I have decided to get the vitamin k, Samantha you are right, it is not a vaccination it is a vitamin preparation used to prevent Haemorrhagic Disease of the Newborn which is a bleeding disorder that can occur from birth to six months, it may cause brain damage and can be fatal.
I havn't made a decision on the hep b as yet, my midwife said it's not really necessary at birth unless you are in a high risk, which considering I will probably be lucky if I venture out of the house in the first two months I am probably not.
Thanks T&M's mum for giving me the view from that side of the fence you seem extremely well informed and have really made me open my eyes to things that hadn't even crossed my mind. I respect your decision, in fact I think you are very brave for standing up for your views, it's a lot easier to just go with the crowd.
I had whooping cough when I was a baby and was in hospital for a few days and my mother blames herself for being late in getting me vaccinated. I actually wonder how many parents don't even make an informed decision and just sign the consent forms without any knowledge. I probably would have been one of them if I had not posted the question. Thanks again everyone!

[Tannie]

I know this is probably stirring the pot.........but I take exception when I am asked to give an opinion, give it in good faith and trying to explain clearly my rationale for doing so.........then am chasised because what i post doesn't "toe the line" with another persons view!!

Give me a break........and for all who reads information....we DID research our decision thoroughly and make a well thought out decision. Somehow, in all the forums where this discussion comes up, people who are "anti-immunisation" seem to imply or even outright state that we who decide to immunise are dumbsticks, who don't do any research, sign forms without thinking about what we are signing and are somehow putting our children at great risk of all these terrible life events if we immunise :mad: Somehow it's implied those who vaccinate are all in the "another brick in the wall" mentality and the "smart" people are those who don't immunise...........these people somehow take more care of their and their childrens health (we who immunise obviously don't eat the healthy food all the anti people do.....blah....blah) and aren't the nasty ones that we are - subjecting our kids to injects and terrible reactions etc etc etc :( It's actually very insulting to the vast majority of parents....99.9% who I'm sure DO worry about these things and think about what they are doing before doing it.

I personally believe that it's just become trendy at the moment not to immunise and unfortunately almost anything that trys to get done these days "for the greater good" is seen as some sort of conspiricy........."big brother" is leading us all and unknowingly forcing us down a path......."The Truman show" live in our communities.......honestly - stop beating up on those of us that do immunise. Weather you like it or not - I don't believe it's any great medical conspiricy.......for a start - immunisation costs governments and multinational companies BIG $$ and knowing what I know about govt and company budgets - I'd reckon if they could get out of spenting the $$ - they would! Anyway - for what reason or what good would it be to governments & the World Health Org to be promoting something that is going to make us all so much sicker?? It just doesn't make common sense to me :confused:

Why such the problem with the herd immunity factor? That's just a scientific way of calculating the % of people vaccinated in a community and is a valid way to count this. I'm sure immunosuppressed children and their parents would not be quite so blase about the level of herd immunity..........

BUT - really - do what you like! I REALLY DO hope that this current trend away from immunisation doesn't backfire down the track.........I sincerely DO HOPE that you folks are right about this - for all our sakes & for your childrens.

BUT..........this is just MY OPINION! If I've offended by stating what I believe to be true I am sorry - but if this forum is going to be of any use to people seeking information, then I believe a variety of opinions and views is the essence of usefulness.
T

[Ffrenchstar]

- but if this forum is going to be of any use to people seeking information, then I believe a variety of opinions and views is the essence of usefulness.
T
Couldn't agree more and that is exactly what I was trying to say in response to your first post which was quite one sided and forceful. "It's your choice...I guess..."
I cant see anyone making out people who vaccinate to be "dumbsticks." If it is anyone who gets a hard time it is the ones who dont vaccinate. All I was saying was please respect other peoples decisions. End of story as I do not wish to get into a debate.

[Lucybelle]

Hey, I wasn't aware there was a choice when my daughter was born. Now I know otherwise.
I too wouldn't call you a dumbstick for vaccinating, as much as I hope you wouldnt call me a tree hugging hippy for not vaccinating.

INFORMED CHOICE - thats all we ask- by the way, no one brought up a conspiracy theory here for gods sake. Please note the information given by myself & T@M has been published in medical journals.

And poor Narelle who started the bunfight!!! (don't worry, it happens everytime). You can always delay vaccination until bubs is a little older if you choose.

Good Luck to all - end of story for me too.

Kisses

[Bella's Mummy]

I really must take issue with Toby’s Mum and her very selfish and outdated view of vaccination. Basically is what you’re saying is that you don’t want your child to get any diseases but you’re not willing to do anything to prevent it. AND you rely on other people to immunise their children so as to prevent the spread of disease to your children – how selfish and narrow-minded is that!??! :confused:

Please know that the diseases that your children could suffer are FAR, FAR worse than the so-called “chemicals in the bodies” and “’unknown/known’ long term health effects” you mention! And what’s more, by not choosing to immunise, you will allow the disease to live on, continue to spread and ruin more children’s lives! Again, very selfish!!! :mad:

Folks, let’s face it – we live in the 21st century; we can and should take all precautions medically possible and available to us. We owe it to our beloved children to protect and care for them. So many of the children in the world die from diseases that can be eradicated by immunisation.

One final question to ask yourself when dealing with this issue – were you immunised? Have you suffered through chicken pox, mumps, whooping cough, measles, etc? If it is yes to the first question – why not do your own children? If yes to the second question – then would YOU want YOUR child/ren to suffer as you did?????

[Ffrenchstar]

:) :rolleyes: As I said, end of story for me. Also, I dont feel the need to be involved in a debate with is totally unwilling to accept than anyone could possbly think differently (as I said with GOOD reason) to herself.
I hope you have a lovely day and maybe one day learn some love, acceptance and tolerance of other peoples beliefsfor themselves and their beloved children. :) :)

[Narelle]

I had no idea when I posted the question that people's opinions of this subject would be felt so strongly and be so informed but then I suppose I hadn't really thought about it that much at all.
I'm glad I did post it as I feel like at least now I will be making a more informed decision than I would have before, although I still have more research to do!
Thanks again to everyone for their opinion there are definately strong points for each view and I guess we're lucky we live in a country where we have a choice!

[Lucybelle]

Excuse me Bellasmum, but did you actually READ the previous posts??
Did you fail to take in the obviously well-researched points of view of ALL who posted.?
Up until now, as passionate as we are about this subject, we have managed to have a reasonable debate and get own points across. We are here to support each other, not attack.
So before you keep posting, keep that in mind. :mad:

[Ffrenchstar]

:) Lucybelle.

Narelle, yes it is always a HOT topic!! People start judging and frowning upon the legitimate choices others make for their families. I suppose that cant be helped. I am glad that you have found it helpful. Good luck with your research and whatever you decide to do. It is such a HUGE decision and whatever feeld right for you wont neccessarily for someone else. Congratulations on wanting to be informed. We all do the best we can.
And Tannie and Bellasmum, please read our posts again and tell us WHERE we were attacking anyone :rolleyes: . Why do I deserve to be attcked and insulted?? I am not "Anti-Vax" I just dont choose it for my family.

[Tannie]

Toby@millers mum - I purposely didn't state that I was posting against you - as I wasn't actually. What I was trying to state was my views on what happens everywhere this discussion comes up -not just on this particular thread on this particular board. I don't think my first post was very forceful at all really - I was jsut stating how I felt and what my opinion was..............okay - my second post was pretty full on I admit - but to me - the tone that always seems to come across when this debate starts from anti-vac to pro-vac is that somehow we aren't thinking of the issues as deeply..............maybe this is just my perception - but I just think the whole anti-vacc movement has gotten way too hysterical about the whole shebang. There are additives and toxins and pollutants in every area of our life these days - if you think that by eating organic food you're going to avoid them - you're kidding yourself! This is just modern living and evolution IMO & our bodies adjust and adapt - if they don't - then our genes won't evolve!

I have to admit that I am swayed greatly by my parents. They are a good generation older then probably everyone elses parents here - they are now in their mid-80s. When I was debating the vaccination issue - I mentioned it to mum and her reply was that she couldn't believe people would choose not to vaccinate these days..........she and dad both clearly remember the days prior to vaccination and how many of their childhood friends died and suffered from these, now preventable, illnesses. This isn't hysteria - it's their personal recollections from growing up in the 1920's & 1930's and during the war (WW2 - in which my dad fought)
I think we have become a bit complacent about the thread of these illnesses because most of us have never seen anyone suffering from them and hence, think it doesn't happen or somehow, our good health stops us contracting them. Well - I don't actually believe this - I believe if herd immunity continues to fall then we will start to see cases of polio etc again and this will be terribly sad.

have to run - my bub awakes .............oh - she has had no reactions from her inj so far - the heelprick test to check for the various genetic disorders was the most traumatic thing she's had done - the jabs haven't bothered her much at all - funny look on her face and then she is fine!! No one likes getting needles - I certainly don't - but to me the alternative is scarier.
T

[xkwzit]

Hey Narelle,
Don't worry about starting the debate - there's a lot of great information out there. We are all extremely passionate about the decisions that we are making (which is great). And that doesn't mean that what is right for one family is right for everyone.

But it would also be great if we could recognise that we are all working towards the same goals. We're all caring parents with enough to deal with and there is probably more that brings us together than separates us.

So lets be cool... ;)

[Mother Duck]

Toby's mum - thanks for the very direct response!

As I said in my original email - I RESPECT ALL WHO HAVE MADE AN INFORMED DECISION. Please take that as it is said. Thanks

As to why I mentioned the 'herding effect' - this was for Narelle's benefit as it had not been mentioned prior. As each of us were giving 'snippets' and not providing the entire argument in each post - this was my 'snippet'

It is interesting that you feel the need to blast me with facts. You have had to
"give your reasons again" - because you choose to, not because I have made you.

I too have made a far more informed decision than you give me credit for. I have a VERY GOOD understanding of chemistry and substances, and thus also hate the 'crud' that goes in to the immunisations.

I (as was stated in my original reply) also looked very much into all the pro's and con's.

I found that no matter how much I researched I was not comfortable with EITHER school of thought. I DECIDED TO IMMUNISE - that does not mean I am in need of your chastising. :mad:

It sickens me in the gut when I take my girl for her needles but I do it because THAT is the INFORMED decision that I have made!

[WeThree]

These days whatever your beliefs on any subject you are always going to be able to find research and facts to back up your beliefs and disclaim others because usually if you are biased towards something you are going to seek out info to support it, so i just think as long as what ever you are doing you are doing out of love for your children then your probably making the right decision for them :) (hope that makes sense!)

[Ffrenchstar]

Jessie, I have Pm'd you :)

Coop and X - couldn't agree more :)

[Mother Duck]

T&M's mum

Thank you for the pm.

You and I are clearly very passionate on this point, as are most that have thought about it. It is such a horrible thing to have to decide, whichever choice is made.

Warmest regards
Jessie

[Bella's Mummy]

Just a quick point - I didn't attack or insult anyone - I just chose to air my views and challenge those with which I disagree. And it was only my first post!!! LOL!

But don't worry - I won't be back to contribute to this board anymore!!! I don't like the agro!!

Toby@Miller’s Mum - FYI - I do love my child and try to care for other children - that's why I chose to immunise my girl. I also realise that others have differing opinions to me - it just frustrates me when people can't face simple facts.

Thank you for your kindness!!!! :)

[Ffrenchstar]

I really must take issue with Toby’s Mum and her very selfish and outdated view of vaccination.

– how selfish and narrow-minded is that!??! :confused:

and ruin more children’s lives! Again, very selfish!!! :mad:

No, your right, not insulting anyone.

[chicklet]

Hello. I've been reading the interesting comments made here. How come no one mentioned the Autism epidemic? Iin the States the Autism rate is 1 in 166. Kids as old as 12 are getting autism right after their jabs (the flu shots still contain mercury)

There's a book on the Autism-mercury connection that's got people talking in the States:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0312326440/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-1259224-9383200?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

It's received good reviews from mainstream news sources:

The mercury component made up just .01 percent of the volume of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Yet in some vaccines that amount proved to be 25 micrograms of mercury per injection, which in turn is 50 times the Environmental Protection Agency safety limit for exposure to mercury for an 11-pound infant.

In 1999, the U.S. Public Health Service and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended that pediatric vaccines containing thimerosol "be removed as soon as possible," but their statement lacked the force of a federal recall. Six years later, controversy continues over whether the spike in autism over the past decade resulted from expanding case definitions and improved detection, whether the rise can be attributed to mercury or some other vaccine component, and what can be done to treat autistic children. "Evidence of Harm," by New York Times reporter David Kirby, is a gripping investigation of these questions. Much like the 9/11 commission's report, it is an alarming page-turner. ..
Shortly after the panel's report, the federal Department of Health and Human Services and the FDA responded to activists' allegations and began considering the following charges: that vaccine manufacturers had misrepresented the safety of thimerosal; that initial results from a 2000 CDC study, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, showed a statistical correlation between mercury exposure through pediatric vaccines and neurological disorders in children, although the association disappeared in the published analyses; and that the data may have since been destroyed...
http://www.newsday.com/features/booksmags/nyc-botleft4236167may01,0,6295116.story?coll=nyc-bookreview-headlines

Check out the book. It'll make you so mad you'll want to scream.

___________________________________

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=47

[Ffrenchstar]

Thanks for that Chicklet - it's always interesting to have something new to read, I moght have to buy that one.. :)

[SugarBlossom]

Bellas Mummy I think you are way out of line for what you said about Toby@Millar'sMum.

Quote: By Bellas mummy:
I really must take issue with Toby’s Mum and her very selfish and outdated view of vaccination. Basically is what you’re saying is that you don’t want your child to get any diseases but you’re not willing to do anything to prevent it. AND you rely on other people to immunise their children so as to prevent the spread of disease to your children – how selfish and narrow-minded is that!??!


As parents we have the right to make the desicion about our children with the info we have. We also have the right to make this desicion and and be supported.

Being a parent is hard enough in the worls today, WITHOUT being accused and abused by other parents espcially!!

How can you accuse someone of being selfish and narrow minded, if they are making an informed CHOICE.

I think you are narrow minded for your outdated veiw of choice and I can can see your just another drug company supporter.

Formaldehyde (which is in some vaccs) is haighly toxic, I would never put that in MY body....and esp not my babys!!

And just for the record...NO I'm NOT vaccinating either!! :mad:

[Mother Duck]

These puppies were sleeping!

Just for the record...

This was one of the most uncomfortable threads that I ever posted in - I felt misunderstood, labelled and quite upset.

The whole immunisation thing broke my heart as it was - as you will see from past posts we decided to immunise - and I am totally aware of the risks.

It was for me nothing to do with drug companies but just a horrible horrible decision that had to be made one way or another.

No matter how informed I became there was no solice in one decision or the other - risks either way.

LOL

[faery]

I wanted to add my 2 cents here....

This is going to be my first bub and I also have been doing heaps of research into the whole vax issue.

having a partner who is a herbalist, being an energetic healer myself, and working for a chiropractor, my life is very much tied into natural healing.

basically, I don't see the point in injecting my child with, what is it now...22?, shots, full of toxic chemicals. Strong immune systems and healthy children are not created through injection, but through healthy living.

We have decided on NO vaccinations whatsoever for our little bub.

It's good to read that those who have decided to vaccinate have also done research before going ahead.

I'm happy to get pm's from those other non-vaccinators 'cause i know it is a contentious issue and i reckon we need to support each other!! there is so much info out there about natural ways to have a strong immune system and a healthy kid (and healthy adult for that matter!!)
:p

[AM]

Just popping in on this thread and putting my hand up as a complete non-vaxer, I think we are pretty outnumbered right now!

My reasoning has pretty much been covered, but I would like to say that if vaxing is just so wonderful, why do people feel threatened by those who do not vax?

Surely if your child is vaccinated, then they are 'safe', or are they???

I am really happy to hear that a lot of people responding have actually done the research before deciding TO vax, I am horrified by the number of people I meet who simply trot their kidlets off to the doc to get the jabs because it says so in the child progress booklet they have, never even bothering to look into the issue, and find out exactly what is being injected into their child.

As for Vitamin K, it seems to go in and out of fashion, and mass dosing for an extremely rare disease seems a little over the top to me.
I figure there is method in natures madness that newborns have a relatively low level of Vit K, and as I am not one to mess with nature unless there is a glaringly good reason, we opted no Vit K unless we had had a traumatic birth, resulting in bruising to my baby, and thankfully there was no such need.

Vaxing a baby for a disease such as Hep B, when it is not even in any of the risk groups is totally for the convenience of HCP's, just to get it over with.
Your child may never actually ever enter one of the risk groups, hence the shot will probably never be necessary.

My personal view is that if I were ever to vax (over my dead body) I would at least delay them for probably a year, or 18 months, as by that age a childs lymph system is much more mature, and can much more efficiently process any toxins which are injected, and eliminate them much more quickly, hopefully causing a little less damage to the immature immune system.
The fact that an 18 month old can run and jump is part of speeding the elimination process, something which a tiny inert baby has not the luxury of achieving.

In the natural scheme of things, a childs immune system would normally only have to cope with one disease at a time, coming slowly through the body's natural defences, mucous membranes etc, not being injected directly into the body, multipile diseases at once.

Most vaccinations do not convey life time immunity, wheras catching the disease naturally, such as measles, mumps and chic pox usually does confer lifetime immunity.
There is a fear that mass vaxing will see a huge resurgance of these diseases in the adult population as their temporary immunity wears off, and people have not kept up with their booster shots.

There is a theory that vaxing while the immune system is immature, which is around about until 4 or 5 years old, that this can pre dispose the body to degenerative disease, which is a huge problem in western society today.

With so many huge question marks over vaccination, I tend to err to the side of caution, and trust in the natural strength of my child's immune system, why fix it if it aint broke?
I do try to make sure I do everything in my power to naturally boost my sons immune system, such as extended breastfeeding, avioding antibiotics, ingesting a great diet, using pro biotics, not being fanatical with the use of anti-bacterial wipes etc, allowing him to eat dirt etc, and supporting his system with herbal remedies/homoeopathics if I feel he needs them.

O dear, this turned into a novel! :rolleyes:

[SugarBlossom]

Well said ApprenticeMomma!

Those are my veiws exactly! We get pushed into so many things, by docs or "little handbooks". Trust in the fact that we are healthy and live a lot hygenically than ever before

I would also like to know why all the pro vaccs are so worried about us anti vaccs??
Can someone please let us know? :confused:

If I offended anyone with my last post....I'm sorry, the drug company remark was not nessecary......although, they still have to advertise like any other business!

This is not an easy decision for whichever path you choose.

[Angelmist♥]

So in all your non-vaxxer's opinions the 3 yr old child who died here a few weeks ago from the very vaccinatable(sp?) pneumoccocal disease, just wasn't eating healthy enough?I'm sure her parents would love to read this thread.

I have and will vaccinate my children, and I'm not worried about you non-vaccinators but you're making out that we don't feed our children healthy enough SO therefore have to vaccinate :confused: WHAT THE????

For example Toby@Millersmum said.....
I also believe that the body has an amazing ability to fight off disease if nurtured and taken care of. I spend a HUGE amount of time and effort cooking organic food for my family, using NO chemical cleaning or hygeine products, getting regular exercise and clean water, getting enough rest and building up the body with Homeopathic treatments. This, to me is way more important in the prevention of disease than vaccination.

and by faery.........
basically, I don't see the point in injecting my child with, what is it now...22?, shots, full of toxic chemicals. Strong immune systems and healthy children are not created through injection, but through healthy living.

and again by apprenticemomma..........
I do try to make sure I do everything in my power to naturally boost my sons immune system, such as extended breastfeeding, avioding antibiotics, ingesting a great diet, using pro biotics, not being fanatical with the use of anti-bacterial wipes etc, allowing him to eat dirt etc, and supporting his system with herbal remedies/homoeopathics if I feel he needs them.

I honestly don't mean for this to sound nasty, but I sincerely hope your children never come down with any of the diseases that can be fully vaccinated against.

[AM]

I'm sorry Nara, but your post is ridiculous and immflamatory, something which the quoted posters avoided, by simply stating how THEY approach things, not pointing fingers at anyone else at all.

You are welcome to your view, I don't give two hoots what you do with your children, so please keep the tone a little nicer!

[dannii]

ApprenticeMomma: i didnt see a nasty tone about what nara said..
Yours however did seem to be harsh ..

I'm sorry Nara, but your post is ridiculous ..................

"You are welcome to your view, I don't give two hoots what you do with your children, so please keep the tone a little nicer!"

whats that about??? now we have people telling us HOW we can talk?


perhaps your comments can be takin wrong, as it seems as though your saying we can avoid vaccinations just by eating healthy and having a cleansing lifestyle.
That is your opinion,
and ours is that we don't want to take the chance of getting a disease that can easily be avoided, our childrens lives are far too important for that.

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer for this, and everyone is allowed their opinion and shouldnt see the need in justifying how they do things.

[AM]

I guess it just depends whether or not you believe in the implicit intelligence of the human immune system, especially where we live in a country that is lucky enough to have great sanitary conditions, access to fresh uncontaminated food and water etc, and very low rates of disease, which I do not believe is attributable to mass vaxing.

I think there are people out there who let their children eat a lot of processed junk, actually I know this, I see it every day... something which I do not allow, as I really do think it compromises health and immunity.

We all have the same goal in mind, keeping our children safe, some of us simply prefer to travel a different route, using a combination of natural means, and working with the immune system, rather than injecting chemicals.

Different strokes...

[Angelmist♥]

I'm sorry Nara, but your post is ridiculous and immflamatory, something which the quoted posters avoided, by simply stating how THEY approach things, not pointing fingers at anyone else at all.

You are welcome to your view, I don't give two hoots what you do with your children, so please keep the tone a little nicer!

Hmm I find this interesting considering my entire post was basically direct quotes taken directly from you and others...........

I would also like to know if mass vaccinations, in your opinion, doesn't attribute to the low disease rate in our country, what does????

Ps- Yes they are MY children, so therefore don't need you to give two hoots about what I do with them.

[Jaileth]

Wow!

Ok. I know that this is a contriversial (sp!) subject, and one that pretty much every parent has to make at some stage for their kids, but....

When I first found the bubhub site - I was amazed by how nonjudgemental everyone was. They let people have their say and would respon without personally attacking any one or any train of thought.

The reason that I read this post was to try and help me make a more informed decision on the injections and immunisations that children are supposed to get. I have to admit that I am a fence-sitter when it comes to this subject, because I do not have the information on it to make an informed choice.

So, to those of you who choose not to vaccinate - congratulations for choosing to go against main stream ideas. If you could pm me some info on diet, ect, that would be great - I would love to see what you are doing instead of vaxinating.

And to those of you who do choose to vaccinate - congratulations for choosing to immunise - especially for those like Jessie who are in or deal with higher risk areas.

To both sides of the fence - congratulations for choosing to keep your kids safe, the best way you know how.

We are all people, and although we can't keep everyone happy all of the time, we can try and voice our opinions without fear of recrimination.

Happy posting all, and hope to see you in happier threads!

[Jaileth]

Oh, and by the way,

The above post was sincere, and was not meant to be taken as sarcasim or be mean spirited.

Just thought I'd cover that - just in case :)

[Briannabear]

I think that was very well put Shaelia! :D

[Jaileth]

Thanks, I just hope it doesn't upset anyone any more than they already might be about this thread! :(

Looking forward to hearing some positive news from both sides tho :)

[AM]

Hi Nara,
I just wanted to clarify a couple of things, the parts to your post which upset me were your words, not the quotes, as I'm sure you realise! ;)

So in all your non-vaxxer's opinions the 3 yr old child who died here a few weeks ago from the very vaccinatable(sp?) pneumoccocal disease, just wasn't eating healthy enough?I'm sure her parents would love to read this thread.

It is most categorigally NOT my opinion that this poor child had a poor diet, I have no idea why they caught the disease, I'm sure it was a myriad of factors.
Mind you, I am curious as to whether they were vaxed or not, do you know?

I have and will vaccinate my children, and I'm not worried about you non-vaccinators but you're making out that we don't feed our children healthy enough SO therefore have to vaccinate :confused: WHAT THE????


I never stated anywhere that I think vaxers do not feed their children healthily enough, I mentioned diet as part of MY strategy in helping boost immune system, as I choose not to use vax's.
It was in no way directed at anyone, just a simple statement of what works for me and my family, as I was trying to answer the OP who asked for views and opinions.
As I do not know any of you, and have never met any of you, of course I have no idea what you do or do not feed your children, nor is it any concern of mine, I simply try to do what I feel is right for me and my family, and I know everyone else in the world does what they feel is right, but everyone has their own way of doing things, which is great.

As for my 'I don't give two hoots..." comment, that was very poorly worded, and I apologise, I was simply, clumsily, trying to point out the fact that I do what is right for ME, and obviously you do what is right for YOU.

Diversity is what makes this world great, and I love reading about everyones differing opinions, I have had to think twice on occasion about things, and have sometimes had my mind completely changed, I think all the unique points of view are what keep me coming back! :)

[AM]

I would also like to know if mass vaccinations, in your opinion, doesn't attribute to the low disease rate in our country, what does????



I think someone else earlier in the thread pointed out the fact that disease was in rapid decline before mass vaxing was introduced, and it was contributed to the much higher standards of hygiene, and a generally better standard of living.

[sopolicha]

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about the MMR causing autism. Some studies have shown that there are no links between MMR and autism.

This site has links to that research and other stuff about that particular debate, which is interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/health/2002/mmr_debate/default.stm


What each person does with their kids is of course their own personal choice, and for the record I am an immuniser. I could not live with the guilt if one of my kids contracted one of the diseases and I knew I could have done something to prevent it in the first place.

For no other reason than plain curiosity - if you take the stand not to immunise your kids what you do if and when you or your kids stepped on something rusty and dirty from the ground, cut themselves, or got bitten by a dog and they were offered a tetanus shot? Would you have it or not?

In relation to the Hep B shots in new born babies, a naturopath said to me that it was initially started in the event of a needle stick injury in the hospital...... I really don't know what to make of that one.

[Angelmist♥]

I am truly sorry, I did not mean to offend anyone in anyway.

I think it's brilliant that in our country we have the choice to vaccinate or not.With that said, I wasn't originally going to reply to this post............. but after reading and re-reading all the posts, I felt that anyone who had vaccinated their children were looked on as dumb, unhealthy parents which is in no way true.Obviously looking through the posts, I was not the only one who felt this way.

I looked very much into the pro's and con's of vaccinating, and chose for my children to be vaccinated due to the fact that I would prefer them to have needles than the disease.My SIL is actually a nurse in the children's ward here, and I have heard that many stories about these so-called non-existent diseases taking lives or causing brain damage in babies (ie- chicken pox, measles, rubella).

And as for your question about the child who died, no she wasn't vaccinated.So now her mother is suicidal and in full-time care.

Once again I'm sorry, I don't feel that I was attacking ANYONE (and certainly didn't mean to), I felt like I was on the defensive. Reading the posts, I felt like I had been attacked because of my decision to vaccinate.

[Jaileth]

By coming in late in this discussion, I can honestly say that by reading the posts it gave the inpression that everyone thought they were under attack, weather they decided to vaccinate or not.

I agree with you nara - one of the best things about living in Australia is that we do have a choice! Which is why I think everyone gets a bit hot under the collar about it - making a choice usually means that at some stage, some where, you have to defend it.

I still haven't decided, but I would like to know the answer to sopoli's question - if you take the stand not to immunise your kids what you do if and when you or your kids stepped on something rusty and dirty from the ground, cut themselves, or got bitten by a dog and they were offered a tetanus shot? Would you have it or not? I think that that is a really interesting question, and would love to hear what people think!

Also, for those of us who choose not to vaccinate, have you had trouble with getting your child into day care? I've heard that some centres won't allow children in who haven't been vaccinated. Once again - not trying to pick on any one, just genuinenly (sp!) curious!

[Ffrenchstar]

It is illegal for daycare centres or schools (or anywhere) to discriminate against unvaxxed kids. You just have to adhere to the exclusion policies if there is an outbreak of ilness:)

[AM]

In answer to the tetanus question, wound care is a big factor in preventing tetanus, as it can only thrive in anerobic conditions, ie, where there is no oxygen, ie, a closed over wound.
So my first reaction would be to thoroughly clense the wound, and make sure it is kept open, so no tetanus bacteria can live, of course it does depend on the severity of the wound, if it was simply too difficult to care for it safely, I would definitely consider the use of Tetanus immune globulin, which provides temporary immediate immunity by directly providing antitoxin, helping to remove unbound Tetanus toxin.
I am not against vax's totally, if there is a serious threat of disease, I think they are called for, but my family is just so low risk for these diseases, that I would prefer to deal with them if and when they occur.

[cosmic]

I've just read this thread from beginning to end - and it's a topic I'm very interested in so I'm glad it was resurrected!

I would be really interested to find some information on the risks of immunisation and was wondering if the non-immunisers could maybe point me in the direction of some research, links etc...?

Much appreciated! :)

[xkwzit]

Also, for those of us who choose not to vaccinate, have you had trouble with getting your child into day care? I've heard that some centres won't allow children in who haven't been vaccinated. Once again - not trying to pick on any one, just genuinenly (sp!) curious!

Hi Shaelia
I have to agree with Katie, as far as I know, daycare centres and schools cannot refuse admission to your child if you have an objection to immunisation. Of course they often say stuff like its their preference for all kids to be vaxed, but in the end it is up to you - not them. I have chosen to vax - so my info might be a bit out of date, I'm hoping that the non-vaxing mums out there can drop in with more up to date stuff.

Cheers

[Mother Duck]

Hello All

Shae, it has been lovely reading your posts in here, very neutral and well worded. I also really appreciate your mention of the risk area that we have locally.

Oh dear, it seems we are all totally passionate parents between whom we have a great deal of knowledge to share. If only we could discuss this topic without ANYONE getting upset.

Maybe it is just b/c views are so strong either way.

Nara - I'm sad for you that you had to see that little girl pass away and her mummy going through such grief - would break my heart!

It is great that this 're-opened' thread has helped some newbies to the chat - I was wrong evidently in my 'sleeping dogs' comment.

Here's to all those that seek knowledge! Vax or Non-vax!

[Jaileth]

Cool, thank you - I didn't know that non-vaccinating or vaccinating could be seen as discrimination! Are the exclusion policies just if they have something - say chickenpox - at the school/centre? Or is it an outbreak of anything - like the 'flu?

Thanks Jessie - glad to know I'm doin' something right :D

And ApprenticeMomma - you learn some thing new every day! The most I knew about tetanus before was that it is REALLY bad - casues lockjaw, etc, and the needle REALLY hurts :)

[tickle]

Hi all!
I am pro-vaccination for my kids but I had a query.
I hope I have not misinterpreted what anyone has said, but from what I have read it sounds like some people question whether the vaccines actually do anything. Please correct me if I am wrong though.
I am not saying that the ingredients in vaccines are 'non toxic' in anyway at all. But when I see about the trials they have done with the vaccine that will come out soon to prevent cervical cancer, the results overwhelmingly indicate that the vaccine is doing something.
To me, weighing up the pros and cons, I think the risks of the diseases themselves are much greater than the risks of the vaccine.
Just my thoughts. :)

[AM]

Hi Olivers mum,

I definitely agree that vax's DO do *something* and I suppose to get the desired effect, you have to put up with all the rest of what goes with vaxing, which I believe includes messing around with an undeveloped immune system, possibly resulting in chronic problems later in life, the theory being that since vaxing became very widespread, so did a lot more immune disorders, and degenerative disease.

The other obvious one is the other additives which go along with the *useful* stuff, and ethical concerns about the origins of some of the ingredients.

I personally think if you have to vax, at least delay it for a year or 18 months, so your child has developed that little bit more, to be able to cope with all that vaxing entails.

It absolutely horrifies me, the amount of chemicals etc which babies receive within weeks of being born, I just feel it is far too much to expect their systems to deal with.

Of course, all this is my personal opinion, from the reading I have done, and drawn conclusions from! :D

[AM]

Just a note about daycares etc, and not vaxing, you can download a form from the internet, or get one from a HCP which is a conscientious objection to vaccination, you just need to fill it out, get a HCP to sign it, and there is your legal exemption, which is a useful document to have, if anyone gives you any grief.

If you do not vax, you are still entitled to receive the immunisation allowance of $200 odd dollars, provided you fill out a conscientious objectors form, get it witnessed, and send it into medicare before your child is 18 months old.
Usually the payment is credited directly to your bank account.

[Eleni's Mum]

Hi all,

I've just read through the thread and it's incredible the variety of thoughts even among those on the same side of the debate.

I thought I'd throw in a couple of points for you and wondered what you all thought.

Did you know that whooping cough is on the rise again as more people are opting not to vaccinate for this disease?

That tuberculosis is increasing in Australia as it is brought in by people overseas who aren't vaccinated?

I am a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to my ideas on childbirth and baby health and I'd love to know how many people used 'something' during childbirth or to bring on their labour? Would be interesting to know where people's thoughts were with vaccinations and childbirth intervention.

This isn't meant to be inflammatory but simply a curiosity thing, something I've been interested in for a while as I had previously been working in the area and was interested in decisions made by women and why.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts,

[SugarBlossom]

Quote: Eleni's mum :
I am a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to my ideas on childbirth and baby health and I'd love to know how many people used 'something' during childbirth or to bring on their labour? Would be interesting to know where people's thoughts were with vaccinations and childbirth intervention.


What has one got to do with the other?? Intervention sometimes needs to happen because the baby or mama will die/or not come out healthy. Not always, but sometimes.

Vaccs happen because of MAYBE'S . Maybe your child will get sick, maybe your child won't get sick.

I don't get what the two have in common, pls let me know :confused:

[tickle]

I think she was referring to optional drugs in labor.
Maybe I don't know. But I was curious about this too.

[xkwzit]

I'm guessing, but on first read I thought that Eleni's Mum was talking about doing something like taking cod liver oil or raspberry leaf tea (or having a hot curry) to bring on labour. It is similar in that you are actively taking some substance to interfere with the normal timetable for your pg. So I think the question is if you think its OK to do that - does it follow that you're more likely to vax??

In answer, I would not have taken anything to bring on labour (esp without HCP advice / knowledge), as I think that baby knows best with labour. But I do vaxx my kids - so maybe these issues are not very closely related.

Eleni's Mum
I think you need to drop back into explain a bit more.

Cheers