View Full Version : Not sure what to say but i had to say something...
christen
10-07-2007, 01:29
As some of you will be aware there have been a few threads going about the boycotting of a certain formula brand that have turned into breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding debates.
I am only too aware that breastmilk is best for your baby and that maybe formula feeding should only be turned to as a last resort BUT (I dont know if everybody feels this way or its just me!) people that choose to bottlefeed their baby generally arnt doing so to harm thier child/ren.
I know we can all pull out surveys and articles from abroad that say that such and such % of first time mothers choose to bottlefeed without attempting to breastfeed and these facts are actually facts and they are not just put out there into the world to scare people.
But the attacing of the bottlefeeders by the breastfeeders in this forum really needs to stop, we are not a different species, we are all mothers and fathers in some cases that all love and care for our children in the same way as everyone else does bottlefed or breastfed.
Every mother/father/carer out there that chooses to bottlefeed either beacuse thats the desicion they made or had no other choice, or chose to breastfeed and were successfull deserves the right to voice their thoughts and oppinions on the matter i agree, but maybe we could tone it down a bit. We are all here for the same reasons, help, support, advice and frindship in a time of our lives that can be scary, daunting and exciting all at the same time.
Sorry that went on and on i just needed to say it!
But the attacing of the bottlefeeders by the breastfeeders in this forum really needs to stop
Maybe I live in my own little world with rose coloured glasses but in the 12 months I've been here I've never seen breastfeeder's attack bottlefeeder's. Providing factual information about breastfeeding isn't attacking bottle feeding mums, nor is posting a question asking if you boycott a certain brand of formula. That's attacking the company that makes the formula. Granted, I haven't been on that thread for a couple of days but I see time and time again breastfeeder's being accused of attacking people for bottle feeding and it simply hasn't happened. It's unfair to the breastfeeding mum's out there to say that they can't praise breastmilk and show studies that prove how good it is etc. etc. because it's all of a sudden a personal attack against bottle feeder's.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 06:34
I agree. Bottle feeding mums already know the facts. The facts are in all the books, magazines, on the walls at doctors surgeries, hospitals and health clinics. We don't need the facts rammed down our throats again on a forum.
We already know that breast is best because it stares us in the face every time we make a bottle up. (I used to colour the "breast is best" slogan on the side of the tin in with texta because I felt guilty enough as it is for having to swtich and that just made me feel worse.)
I don't know of anyone who chose to spend a fortune on formula each week just because they could. The entire world knows that breast is best and I am sure that 99% of mothers give it a go (which is better than nothing), but it doesn't always work out as planned.
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 06:50
Providing factual information about breastfeeding isn't attacking bottle feeding mums, nor is posting a question asking if you boycott a certain brand of formula. That's attacking the company that makes the formula.
Another great post:thumbsup:
I agree. Bottle feeding mums already know the facts. The facts are in all the books, magazines, on the walls at doctors surgeries, hospitals and health clinics. We don't need the facts rammed down our throats again on a forum.
Not trying to be a pain....just really trying to understand. Does that happen? Do breastfeeders go into the bottle feeding section and ram the facts down bottle feeder's throats? I'm asking seriously cause I have never ever seen it and am wondering if that actually happens or if you're referring to people posting studies etc, or someone struggling with bf'ing and breastfeeder's reminding them just how good it is for their baby. A lot of time that can keep a struggling bf'ing mum going. It can be hard in the beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel but being reminded as to why you're doing it for in the first place can be what that person needs to keep going. I know I did in the beginning. I never read anything about bf'ing when I was pregnant and I relied on internet forums to give me the facts and to help me with problems so I could keep going. I don't think that that is attacking bottle feeder's at all. I also don't think the facts should stop being posted either. I'm sure I'm not the only person who goes in to breastfeeding blindly and learns about it as they're going along. I've seen lots of posts where bottle feeding mums say 'I'm more informed this time so hopefully I will be more successful at bf'ing second time round' or whatever.
The internet is a wonderful way to gain information about so many things. If someone is deliberately going into the bottlefeeding section and personally attacking bottle feeders then report them to a mod but don't feel attacked by information that can be extremely useful and handy for mother's.
Pippi Longstocking
10-07-2007, 06:58
I agree. Bottle feeding mums already know the facts. The facts are in all the books, magazines, on the walls at doctors surgeries, hospitals and health clinics. We don't need the facts rammed down our throats again on a forum.
We already know that breast is best because it stares us in the face every time we make a bottle up. (I used to colour the "breast is best" slogan on the side of the tin in with texta because I felt guilty enough as it is for having to swtich and that just made me feel worse.)
I don't know of anyone who chose to spend a fortune on formula each week just because they could. The entire world knows that breast is best and I am sure that 99% of mothers give it a go (which is better than nothing), but it doesn't always work out as planned.
Which means then that the info is still not getting through. While I am most definitely very passionate about breastfeeding, my intention is never to belittle or undermine bottlefeeding mothers (I was one myself at one stage!)
My intention is always to get the information out there for those that need it. Attacking bottlefeeding mothers would be a pointless endeavour - those mothers are already bottlefeeding and most would not consider relactation.
What I will happily attack is the message that formula is as good as breastmilk, that choosing formula over breastmilk isn't risky and that breastmilk is inferior to formula. I will insist on making the point that in most cases of breastmilk "drying up", it is due to misinformation. And I will attempt to inform women that yes, breastfeeding can be excruciatingly painful initially, with time mother and baby learn what they are doing and they can go on to have a long pain-free breastfeeding relationship.
EskimoMumma
10-07-2007, 07:10
Most of the time the posts made to attack whoever for their parenting decisions are deleted.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 07:11
Which means then that the info is still not getting through.
Which part of my post said that?
Pippi Longstocking
10-07-2007, 07:13
Which part of my post said that?
Which part said what now? :confused:
I was replying to the part that I highlighted - the information is clearly not getting through because for so many women, breastfeeding isn't "working out as planned"
Most of the time the posts made to attack whoever for their parenting decisions are deleted.
Or even worse sent by PM.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 07:16
The only reason it didn't work out for me was because of the extreme pain. I had them positioned right, attached right, was doing everything as shown by the LC....but I was still in extreme agony. How does that mean that the information isn't getting through?
Not having a go at you or anything, just wondering.
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 07:18
Or even worse sent by PM.
You can report PM's.
Pippi Longstocking
10-07-2007, 07:28
The only reason it didn't work out for me was because of the extreme pain. I had them positioned right, attached right, was doing everything as shown by the LC....but I was still in extreme agony. How does that mean that the information isn't getting through?
Not having a go at you or anything, just wondering.
Because if the information had got through, you would have been still breastfeeding now. Excruciating pain can be a normal part of early breastfeeding. It was for me with all 5 of my babies. It's not just about mummy learning to feed the baby, the bub has no idea what to do either and the learning process can take a while - about 3-4 weeks in our case. Because I understood the benefits and knew that breastfeeding was absolutely what I wanted to do, I endured the pain. I also knew it would end, which makes the world of difference.
It hurts for many many women. Some are lucky and breeze through it but for some it hurts like a b!tch.
This is the stuff women need to know! They need to know that it may hurt but more importantly, they need to know that it is temporary.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 07:34
I know it is meant to hurt. But surely not worse than giving birth to a 5kg baby?? I was bleeding so bad that they were vomitting up blood. When I'd take my bra off, my nipple was stuck to it because of the scabs, and when the scab got ripped off by my bra, I would bleed all over the place. That cannot be normal. It also felt as if pins were getting stuck into me from all angles.
I was resenting my kids and wanting nothing to do with them. I was crying the entire time they were attached which was every 90mins from finish to start, often 2-3hrs each time, sometimes 18hrs.
To this day I still have not bonded with my first because of the BFing, he is almost 10yrs old. It breaks my heart, but no matter how I try, the connection just isn't there. If a person is going to end up hating her child because of BFing issues, then I would much rather that formula be used instead as no child should go through life with their mother resenting or hating them. KWIM??
I'm with you FourAngelKisses. don't have any kids myself yet, but was just reading this thread and wanted to let you know I support you and you definitely made the right decision in light of your circumstances. You know what you did was right, so don't listen to those who will continue to criticise you. :hugs:
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 07:51
I was bleeding so bad that they were vomitting up blood. When I'd take my bra off, my nipple was stuck to it because of the scabs, and when the scab got ripped off by my bra, I would bleed all over the place. That cannot be normal. It also felt as if pins were getting stuck into me from all angles.
I had exactly what you are describing whilst breastfeeding Oscar to begin with. Unfortunately for some ppl that is what happens.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 07:54
I had it with all 4 kids from the first feed. The pain, was every feed, all 4 kids from first feed onwards. By pregnancy #4, I was a sworn bottle feeding nazi (it probably shows in my posts, lol), but still wanted to give breastfeeding a go. 3 feeds and 24hrs later, he was on the bottle. I wasn't about to emotionally torture myself again and resent yet another child.
SammiJane
10-07-2007, 07:56
I am with Jeanette here....
Yes i know its meant to hurt etc and yes it can take a few weeks to get it right but to let your baby starve is another thing....
My first i tried and tried and tried to breast feed and all he did was loose more and more weight and scream so to save my sanity i started to formula feed... and that was advised by the doctor.
With my second i tried again as yes i do know breast is best...
I ended up with very severe post natal depression and was hospitalised with him so in the end i formula fed him too.
My children are happy and healthy and i am happy with my decision
With my third child ( new husband) he despretly wanted me to breast feed and yes i wanted to give it another go. But once again bub was not gaining weight and continously feeding and when not feeding, crying and i ended up a complete mess. i stuck with it for a while but in the end i and my DH decided it was best to change him to formula..... and yes i felt guilty very very guilty and got quite depressed about it, in the end he was then a very happy baby and i was a happy saine mum again and i could actually talk to my other boys without having a baby connected to me 24/7
As Jeanette has said .... yes it is shoved down our throats every where all the time.
We come into the bottle feeding thread to get support and get drummed again for bottle feeding our children??????
I know the breastfeeding mums are only trying to help but sometimes it does hurt.... i think we kick ourselves enough....
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 07:57
Back on topic though, it is the subtle digs like this one
I feel its one of the best gifts I could give to my son for his health and nutritional well being.
that get on peoples nerves. So just because we bottle feed, we aren't giving our kids healthy and nutritional food??
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 08:00
I had it with all 4 kids from the first feed. The pain, was every feed, all 4 kids from first feed onwards.
Nothing I say will make you see that the pain like you described can unfortunately be part of breastfeeding and we need to learn and baby to learn will it??
rynosmum
10-07-2007, 08:02
I had it with all 4 kids from the first feed. The pain, was every feed, all 4 kids from first feed onwards. By pregnancy #4, I was a sworn bottle feeding nazi (it probably shows in my posts, lol), but still wanted to give breastfeeding a go. 3 feeds and 24hrs later, he was on the bottle. I wasn't about to emotionally torture myself again and resent yet another child.
...and that is fair enough too.
Breast is best - we see it everywhere and the World Health Organisation (amongst others) has confirmed it.
Formula however is a darn good alternative if you are unable to breastfeed and you shouldn't feel guilty or attacked for it either.
I breastfed for almost 5 months but then contracted pneumonia and even though I was told I could feed my son through the antibiotics, he took his first feed and started throwing up. The stress I put myself through when I was already very ill and having to move my son to formula was ridiculous. He moved to formula easily, continued to thrive and stay happy and healthy.
Do what you need to and what is right for you and your bubba. I hate being judged and as a part of that, would never judge you for your choice. :hugs:
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 08:05
Nope. And nothing I say will make you see that I totally hate breastfeeding, even though I KNOW it is best will it??
Motherhood is meant to be enjoyable. While breastfeeding, I hated every minute that I was a parent. It is even worse when you have 3 other kids in the room while you sit there bawling your eyes out while holding a screaming baby, all while trying to do everything in your power to avoid feeding them because you know that when you do it will make you resent them even more and feel like throwing them at the nearest wall.
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 08:05
Back on topic though, it is the subtle digs like this one
I feel its one of the best gifts I could give to my son for his health and nutritional well being.
Someone saying that - is not having a go at anyone.
melfunction
10-07-2007, 08:06
Guess what everyone??
I bottle feed Lincoln and I bottle fed Kaiden. Do I give a flying fat pig what other mother's say about what I do with my babies?
NO!
This is getting very tiresome.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 08:08
This is getting very tiresome.
I agree. But I'm not going down without a fight. :D As a mother, it is my duty to make sure my children grow up healthy. If that means formula, then so be it!!
Pippi Longstocking
10-07-2007, 08:11
I agree. But I'm not going down without a fight. :D
*shrugs* well you're not gonna get one from me. I can't be bothered, to be honest. I am here to help, inform and support those that truly want to succeed with breastfeeding. I don't need to waste my time trying to convince those that just want to be argumentative.
Tam-I-Am
10-07-2007, 08:11
Okay, I'm going to insert my 2 bob here - both as a mod and as a forum contributor who has breastfed a baby until she was nearly 2 years old.
1) We do our absolute UTMOST to keep personal attacks off the forum, to keep threads on track, and to keep the forum running as nicely as possible.
2) If however, we do miss the odd post, or somebody gets sent an abusive, unwanted, harrasing, or otherwise unwarranted PM - REPORT it to us, there is a 'forward' function on the PMs just like on emails. Send it to Bubhub, Tickle, Razzle, or any of the other mods - we WILL act on that information. Likewise with posts - there are several thousand posts made here a DAY. Sometimes we miss some. Report them, we will act on them.
3) You may not always know what action we take - we do NOT discuss another member's warnings, infractions, bannings, or other disciplinary actions with other members. Do not assume that because nothing SEEMS to have happened (to you) that nothing has.
As for breastfeeding mums 'attacking' bottlefeeding mums - I object to this both as a moderator and a ex-breastfeeding mum. I have NEVER attacked another person, and RARELY have I seen a breastfeeding mum attack any parent. In fact, most breastfeeding mums are extremely careful about the way they present information to ensure they are presenting information ONLY, not making judgments.
Everybody has their own baggage, and everybody interprets information through that baggage in a certain way. If you're a bottlefeeder who doesn't want to know the information - its really simple, don't read it on the forums. The breastfeeders RARELY go into the bottlefeeding section, and when they do its to impart specific knowledge (ie that there is no need to wean when commencing certain antidpressants, or that certain teats for bottles are less likely to cause nipple confusion if you want to combine the two - bottle and breast).
But if you're a breastfeeder - the information might be lifechanging, valuable, just interesting - or might save your breastfeeding relationship.
THAT is why its important to allow the breastfeeders to share their information. Believe it or not, its not to make ANYBODY feel bad - that would be counterproductive.....Its to try and help the women who are struggling with breastfeeding plough through. Its to try and help re-educate women who were given extremely poor information the first time (or 2nd, or 3rd) by their care providers. And its to try and help women to reassess their decisions about feeding their future children - if they so choose - with the CORRECT information. Nothing more.
I agree that its getting tiresome.
If anyone wants advice on how to breastfeed, or wants encouragement to keep going when they are having a bit of difficulty then I will be over in the breastfeeding section.
Disclaimer: This post is not an attack on formula or bottlefeeding nor will any of my posts made in response to the above be an attack on formula or bottlefeeding.
Pippi Longstocking
10-07-2007, 08:13
Furthermore...what Tami said! :D
melfunction
10-07-2007, 08:16
The best thing we can all feed our babies is love.
ForeverMine
10-07-2007, 08:29
I completely agree with what Tami said.
I am a bottle feeding mum, simply because my son's tounge tie was just to bad for to even attach. No-one told me either that it couldn't be fixed. I was simply told "your son has a tounge tie, you won't be able to breastfed anymore....etc etc..."
I knew then, and I know now, extactly how important breastfeeding is, in my family it's what you do. Everyday I feel guilty that SOMETHING could of been done so I could of breastfed, and I get angry that the midwife wasn't more imformative about my options.
I still read the breastfeeding section in hopes of when my next child is born I will full of new infomation about what to do and who to talk to.
I have and will never see encouragement from breastfeeders as attacks, nor will I see cloth mumma's talking about their nappies as attacks, simply because I don't use cloth. It all comes down to choice. Be recpectful of others, what they have chosen and it's as simple as that.
:)
There are 3 sections on Breast feeding, Celebrating Breast feeding and Breast feeding experts. There you can carry on about the virtues of boob over bottle all you like.
This section is to support mothers who for whatever reason have chosen to bf their child. I have noticed that the mothers that post here feel they have to go into depth about why they have chosen to bottlefeed their babies but why should you have to. To appease the breasties?
And to those that come into this section to force feed us facts and studies :ecomcity: we have heard it all before!!!We do not need your judgement or criticism. As I said there is a section for breast feeders where you can carry on about the virtues of boob over bottle all you like.
There are posts here that are offensive, passive aggressive and judgmental in nature from those do gooders that feel they have a right to make other mother feel inferior for bottle feeding. You know what I mean it may not be blaringly obvious but the undertones are there.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 08:40
Yep, if we want advice, we know where to go to ask for it. We don't need to be chased around forums getting all the information that we already know thrown at us.
SammiJane
10-07-2007, 08:59
I agree also :thumbsup:
Good on ya hippee
Yep, if we want advice, we know where to go to ask for it. We don't need to be chased around forums getting all the information that we already know thrown at us.
You might know everything. Not everybody else does, and not every post is directed specifically at you, in fact probably none of them are since you are such a passionate committed bottlefeeder. I highly doubt that anyone would question you or challenge your decision. Why would they? you are not asking for advice, you already know everything.
:wizard:
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 09:25
Not everybody else does, and not every post is directed specifically at you, in fact probably none of them are since you are such a passionate committed bottlefeeder.
Is that a crime though? If it is okay to be passionate about breastfeeding, why is it not okay to be passionate about bottle feeding? Baby is happy and healthy, mum is happy, other family members are happy because mum is happy. What's the problem with it?
Once you have made a decision it is human nature to want to believe that decision is right, everybody does it, they stand by what they have decided.
There is nothing wrong with bottlefeeding or formula feeding.
I am not passionate about breastfeeding btw. I do it because it was easy and I have never needed to question it because I wanted to do it and it just sort of happened for us. Its not that simple for other people.
I guess I am just feeling defensive for my friends who wanted to breastfeed but couldn't. They don't feel passionate about bottlefeeding, they feel quite gutted about it and I know they don't want to join your cause.
I just feel a bit protective of them I suppose. I hate their being a division between "breasties" (not my choice of words, lol) and bottlefeeders, because I don't want that division.
Anyway, rambling
Mum&bubs
10-07-2007, 09:33
:sleeping: This is getting old.
I LOVE breastfeeding but I've never attacked or judged a bottle feeder because I don't care what you do with your baby. It's got nothing to do with me or my children therefore it doesn't affect me whatsoever! BUT I do like to offer support/encouragement/advice to people who DO want to try with breastfeeding.
:sleeping: This is getting old.
I LOVE breastfeeding but I've never attacked or judged a bottle feeder because I don't care what you do with your baby. It's got nothing to do with me or my children therefore it doesn't affect me whatsoever! BUT I do like to offer support/encouragement/advice to people who DO want to try with breastfeeding.
Thats excellent and that is exactly what the 3 breast feeding sections are for. This one is for the support of FFing.
I guess I am just feeling defensive for my friends who wanted to breastfeed but couldn't. They don't feel passionate about bottlefeeding, they feel quite gutted about it and I know they don't want to join your cause.
But that’s what this section is....the support for mothers FFing!!! Ask questions; share your story and feelings, good or bad with other mothers going through the same thing, without being made to feel less than adequate by those that think you should have tried harder.
FourAngelKisses
10-07-2007, 09:50
without being made to feel less than adequate by those that think you should have tried harder.
THAT is what gets to me. I tried as hard as I could. It didn't work out. Move on to next best option and it is seen as child abuse by some, or laziness by others.
i'm a a bottle feeder after a month of expressing- i wont be going into details as to why i changed because im happy and i know i made the best choice for MY child and just dont feel the need to justify myself.
(.)(.)'s are best i think thats one thing every1 here can agree on- but for what ever reason of the MOTHER bottle is the next best. i am yet to see a post where a (.) feeder has sed anything bad to a bottle feeder and thats including a few sites!
If a (.) feeding mum tries to sit there and tell me that I made the WRONG choice for MY child, she may aswell be talking to a brick wall! My child is happy, my child is healthy my child is reaching all his milestones my child is LOVED
and my child is exactly that MY CHILD.
We all have different opinions- its not a matter of what is 'socially acceptable' but a matter of whats right for YOUR family and ur family alone.
Seriously so long as a baby is fed does it really matter how??...
Yes we all know that breast is best.... everytime we make a bottle we see it right before our eyes..... but as some of us girls have said for some reason or another we are bottle feeding our babies. At least our babies are getting fed....
Turning to forumla is a last resort... and I can pretty much guarantee its not something any of us have taken lightly.
I too, was another mum who could not BF. I went through hell trying. I was in constant pain. Tyler was not getting a lot. I dreaded feed times. The entire feed I would be sitting there in tears and absolutely agony. I had started to resent Tyler. I was not forming a bond with him.... I did not want him anywhere near me. I was depressed in numerous ways. This was not a healthy relationship for a newborn and a new mother. We sat down with a midwife and had a serious conversation and we gave bottle feeding a go.... and we have not turned back. Tyler and I bonded and my fears and anxiety and spiral into depression left as well.... It was what was best for us...
In saying that though... when bubs #2 arrives I am going to try to breastfeed again.
We are all doing what is best for OUR baby.... regardless of whether bubs in on the boob or bottle.... it is getting fed. Isn't that what should matter???...
Big :hugs: to all the bottle feeders out there!!... You are all doing a fantastic and wonderful job!!!
Rainbowbrite
10-07-2007, 10:09
WHO CARES?!?!?! I know I don't. Yes I breastfeed, but I have never EVER put anyone down for bottle feeding. You know why, it has NOTHING to do with me. Most of my friends ff their bubs & they are the happy & healthy & FED, thats all that matters.
As a moderator now, this is the FF section, for supporting FF mums. If you can't do that, then leave please.
WHO CARES?!?!?! I know I don't. Yes I breastfeed, but I have never EVER put anyone down for bottle feeding. You know why, it has NOTHING to do with me. Most of my friends ff their bubs & they are the happy & healthy & FED, thats all that matters.
As a moderator now, this is the FF section, for supporting FF mums. If you can't do that, then leave please.
:yelclap: Zactly!
Whats the point of an unhappy mum . .nothing! A happy mummy equals a happy bubby. If that is boob, yay, if that is formula, yay again. Food is food. As long as bubs is healthy!
Just wanted to add a :hugs: for the Bottle Feeders. From a lazy breastfeeder I commend you on all the extra work it takes to feed your little ones. :D :smiliedance:
MandyPanda
10-07-2007, 10:25
Hi ladies, i'm just going to stick my nose in here.
I've both Breastfed & Bottlefed
AND I JUST WANTED TO SAY:
Well done mums, you are all doing brilliant jobs with your children. keep it up:)
Breast OR Bottle, our babes have full tummies and plenty of love.
Kittylou
10-07-2007, 10:32
I have tried not to get involved in any discussions about breastfeeding/bottle feeding since joining this forum. I know, as do most other bottle feeding mums, that breast is best. I have never seen a mother on these forums dispute this fact, although I have seen it posted time and time again by breastfeeding mothers.
I breastfed my baby for only a week before turning to the bottle due to a baby that wouldn’t attach properly, severe pain when feeding and mastitis. With the benefit of hindsight, I know these issues could have been overcome with the right support but at the time I simply felt that I couldn’t go on. During that week, I found the advice from midwives in the hospital and those that visited me at home to be conflicting and they did little to ensure that I was capable of feeding on my own. I had always expected to breastfeed as it was the norm in my family and the decision not to was extremely difficult and I felt a lot of guilt but at the same time, I believed that my mental health and relationship with my baby was in danger due to the way I was feeling about breastfeeding.
Having said all that, I fully intend to breastfeed my next child. I have to say though, that the way in which some members of this forum go about spreading their message has completely turned me off looking to bubhub for advice and support. What I think some people fail to realise is that for many (although I won’t speak for all) women who have been unsuccessful at breastfeeding, the stigma attached to bottlefeeding makes us a little bit sensitive to the proclamations of breastfeeding mothers and often comments do feel like a personal attack even if they are not direct or not intended, particularly when made in a thread that did not involve someone asking for breastfeeding advice to begin with.
I guess the point I’m really trying to make is that for breastfeeding mothers who really want to get the message out there and help and support other women to breastfeed, you might have more success if you consider the tone and language you use. No doubt this will fall on many deaf ears, but hopefully it will get through somewhere on some level.
Well said Kittylou - I agree. And I'm a breastfeeding mum.
westerner
10-07-2007, 10:45
Whether you b/f or bottlefeed or a mix of both DOES NOT MATTER, neither make you a better mum.. You are the best mum for providing your child with a full belly and nourishing them so they can grow.. The method you use is irrelevant..
Big :yelclap: for everyone who is providing there child with milk to help them grow through life :thumbsup:
I dont care where it comes from.. The point is that your child is fed, and that is the best thing you could do for your little one..
:hugs: :hugs:
theycallmemum
10-07-2007, 10:49
Which part said what now? :confused:
I was replying to the part that I highlighted - the information is clearly not getting through because for so many women, breastfeeding isn't "working out as planned"
Breastfeeding not working has nothing to do with 'information clearly not getting through', it has to do with no supply, cracked bleeding nipples, traumatic births, going back to work early and being to exhausted to drag a pump and bottles around, having a baby in intensive care, post natal depression, lack of support at home, a baby that wants to feed constantly,having toddlers ripping the house apart,the list goes on......
There is not a mother in this country who has been to the doctor while pregnant or had a baby in a hospital who is not clearly educated on breastfeeding. As educated women we have also made the choice along the track of what works best for us and our babies and we do not need breastfeeding nazis making us feel inadequate or somehow lesser mothers for using baby formula.
Breast milk is an ideal food but not everyone is going to or is able to do it, it's that simple. Formula is food, babies need food.
If formula was making babies sick, making them less intelligent or inferior humans I could understand the intense pressure to breastfeed but the facts are that formula fed babies are just as healthy and just as intelligent as breastfed babies.
YAY ladies!!!:yelclap: :hugs:
Who cares if a woman breastfeeds or bottlefeeds?? As long as the woman is happy with whatever choice SHE makes.. and that the child she is raising is healthy and growing... then it shouldn't matter.
Side A leave Side B alone.. and vice versa.
Oscar's mum
10-07-2007, 12:52
Breastfeeding not working has nothing to do with 'information clearly not getting through', it has to do with no supply, cracked bleeding nipples, traumatic births, going back to work early and being to exhausted to drag a pump and bottles around, having a baby in intensive care, post natal depression, lack of support at home, a baby that wants to feed constantly,having toddlers ripping the house apart,the list goes on......
Alot of the things you mentioned can be obstacles but..... they can be overcome with clearer information - which I think is what was trying to be said.
If you have the information surely you can overcome some of those obstacles - right????
Who cares if a woman breastfeeds or bottlefeeds?? As long as the woman is happy with whatever choice SHE makes.. and that the child she is raising is healthy and growing... then it shouldn't matter.
Side A leave Side B alone.. and vice versa.
That's what I think too :)
westerner
10-07-2007, 12:59
If you have the information surely you can overcome some of those obstacles - right????
Some maybe..
In certain circumstances maybe..
But not always.. ;)
So why try to make someone feel "bad" or "guilty" or "less of a mother" if they were unable to overcome the obstacles.. (not saying you do personally im just making a broad comment not based on your quote..:hugs:)
Its absurd..
They are the best mother they can be for feeding and nourishing there child..
THE METHOD OF FEEDING IS IRRELEVANT!!
Ana Gram
10-07-2007, 13:08
Because if the information had got through, you would have been still breastfeeding now.
It might be the case for some but the assumption that all women would still be breastfeeding due to information is a bit... well I am not sure I can come up with the right word for how i feel about that statement. I had loads of help, had all the info but I still hated every second of breastfeeding. Even when DD wasn't actually attached to me and I was expressing, I still hated it. So no, I would not have continued.
Alot of the things you mentioned can be obstacles but..... they can be overcome with clearer information - which I think is what was trying to be said.
If you have the information surely you can overcome some of those obstacles - right????
It is a matter of perspective. It might be an obstacle to you, but to others it may be impossible.
Tam-I-Am
10-07-2007, 13:15
It might be the case for some but the assumption that all women would still be breastfeeding due to information is a bit... well I am not sure I can come up with the right word for how i feel about that statement. I had loads of help, had all the info but I still hated every second of breastfeeding. Even when DD wasn't actually attached to me and I was expressing, I still hated it. So no, I would not have continued.
It is a matter of perspective. It might be an obstacle to you, but to others it may be impossible.
I agree with what you've said Chelle - I think that's where I'm coming from though. If a woman is going to make an INFORMED choice - which you clearly did - then she needs all the information. If she's making an informed choice to bottlefeed, more power to her, yanno?
If a woman is making a choice to FF based on poor, or no information, poor, or no support, then that's where it NEEDS to change. Not for mothers who fully know what FF entails, is about, what the benefits and risks are etc etc - then good on her....a bit like vaxxing I guess - I would never judge for a woman vaxxing or not - but I would try and educate them whilst they were making that decision, especially if they were lost, or asking for advise, or feeling alone, or wanting help....
I personally don't go out into the forums starting threads about the virtues of breastfeeding - all I'm trying to do is share MY OWN experiences, in the hopes that somebody else, who wants and maybe needs that information, will benefit. And I think most other breastfeeders are of the same school of thought. :)
theycallmemum
10-07-2007, 13:20
Alot of the things you mentioned can be obstacles but..... they can be overcome with clearer information - which I think is what was trying to be said.
If you have the information surely you can overcome some of those obstacles - right????
No, I don't agree. You might have been able to overcome some or all of those obstables but that doesn't mean that everyone can.
I still don't see how 'information' can help overcome most of those obstacles. How does information help an exhausted mother of toddlers running wild with a screaming newborn on her lap with bleeding nipples better feed her baby? Does information deliver a nanny and housekeeper to her door? Whats better, giving the baby formula or spiralling into PND because she feels so totally out of control?
PinkBinkie
10-07-2007, 13:26
When I stopped breastfeeding my first child, my aunty rang me up to tell me all the pain she went through with breastfeeding her first child.......mastitis etc, but she stuck with it........so in her eyes I'd given up to early, I hadn't stuck it out through all the pain. In her eyes I'd given up too early. Does this make me less of a mother because I wasn't willing to put myself through more pain, more tears, more worry, more dread?? NO. We all have our OWN reasons, we all need to work out whats best for our child and ourself. I've had failed breastfeeding attempts twice now but will try again if we have a 3rd child. But I was a formula fed baby so I know my children will grow up healthy and happy and strong, regardless of whether they were ff or breastfed.
oliolioli
10-07-2007, 13:50
Alot of the things you mentioned can be obstacles but..... they can be overcome with clearer information - which I think is what was trying to be said.
If you have the information surely you can overcome some of those obstacles - right????
I also don't agree. I had ALL the information, I thought about my choices, I went to a lactation clinic, I spoke with the ABA, I wanted to breastfeed, BUT it just didn't work out for me.
I felt like I was in a pit of despair for the first weeks of my babies life as breastfeeding for me was a disaster, and the choice to formula feed meant that suddenly, overnight, I began to actually enjoy motherhood.
For me, and for many others it is not a lack of information that doesn't enable us to successfully breastfeed. For me my body and mind meant that breastfeeding was not the way to go for me, though I knew that if I kept trying eventually things would fall in to place. But I didnt want to have to WAIT weeks or months for this to happen, I wanted to feel happy NOW and to enjoy those first amazing months with my son, rather than having it tainted with tears and stresses and misery, because for me, that was how breastfeeding felt.
There is plenty of information on the "obstacles" encountered when breastfeeding, and people will ask if they want help overcoming them. But I don't think it is necessary to remind FF mothers that if they had simply sought out more info then they could have succeeded with BF, and thus provided their baby with a better start to life.
I know that breast is best, and to be honest I still feel guilty when I see a mother breastfeeding and I get out Oli's bottle. But all I have to do is remember why i switched, and I just look at my happy and thriving son.... I have to say, it was worth it.
Enough of my rant, Cherry
OllieBear
15-07-2007, 14:41
Guv'nor, just a question, what is relactation? Curious to know, is that were you stop bfing and then start again. (No laughing anyone, if that's a stupid question).:o
Tam-I-Am
15-07-2007, 14:47
yummimummi - I'm obviously not guv, but to answer your question, yes, relactation is where you've stopped breastfeeding and your milk has 'dried up' - and you start again...
Milk ducts never really change back to what they were before - once they've produced milk, you can get them to again (although its bloody hard work from what I understand!) - so women who have had to stop breastfeeding, or did so because of bad information etc, CAN breastfeed again, with a lot of support and information
HTH :) (and welcome to Bubhub!)
OllieBear
15-07-2007, 15:01
Thanks Tam-I-Am for the quick response. May look into it, as a bottle feeder I am still very willing to give anything a go.
~rambox~
15-07-2007, 15:09
Maybe I live in my own little world with rose coloured glasses but in the 12 months I've been here I've never seen breastfeeder's attack bottlefeeder's.
I have personally been attacked by two different breastfeeding mums and there posts were deleted by the wonderful moderators before anyone elses feeling got hurt. Sorry ACE it does happen but you are one of the nice ones that dont do it :hugs:
i have had rude and insensitive and also greatly uninformed coments directed at me regarding formular as well, so i know what you mean
It goes both ways. I get sick of people getting all defensive and saying "there is nothing wrong with formula" when someone is asking for help about breastfeeding.
Nobody ever said there was anything wrong with it, they were just trying to help someone who asked for help with breastfeeding. That doesn't mean they were attacking all the formula feeders.
And ridiculous signatures attacking breastfeeders don't help either. Its all sarcasm but the message is obvious.
i would never under any circumsatnce say to a lady that was trying to get work through BF dificulties and say there is nothing wrong with formular, or guive the baby a bottle, i would how ever stay well away as i know nothing about BF, just like some of the breast feeding mums no nothing about botle of tube feeding
Little Chookie
15-07-2007, 22:28
If formula was making babies sick, making them less intelligent or inferior humans I could understand the intense pressure to breastfeed but the facts are that formula fed babies are just as healthy and just as intelligent as breastfed babies.
I would like to see those facts. All of the information I have read says otherwise.
I don't see how someone who claims to be fully aware of the benefits of Breast milk (or the risks of Formula) can justify making that statement?
I'm not saying there isn't a place for Formulas, but they are inferior to breast milk in every way. Formula is responsible for making some babies sick and putting them at increased risk of some chronic diseases.
Formula is not an equal choice it never can provide what breastfeeding does and that is why there is such intense pressure to breastfeed and why so many people want to help mothers keep breastfeeding for as long as possible.
Everyone is trying their best, and telling mothers having a hard time with breastfeeding untruths isn't helping them achieving their goals.
FourAngelKisses
15-07-2007, 22:37
Where are the facts that say otherwise though? I have 3 very brainy kids who are never sick. My siblings and I were bottle babies and we are all brainy and healthy with no chronic diseases.
Little Chookie
15-07-2007, 22:50
I'm only new here are links or quotes from other sources allowed.
The information is well published (ABA, LLL, unicef, IFBAN, and kellymom and WHO) available web-wide or in libraries. The "WHO" guidlines are based and referenced to studies linking not breastfeeding to increases in the risk of a number of health problems.
I'm not posting this to cause an argument, only to ensure the correct information is shared.
Its your choice to believe this or not.
I would like to see those facts. All of the information I have read says otherwise.
I don't see how someone who claims to be fully aware of the benefits of Breast milk (or the risks of Formula) can justify making that statement?
I'm not saying there isn't a place for Formulas, but they are inferior to breast milk in every way. Formula is responsible for making some babies sick and putting them at increased risk of some chronic diseases.
Formula is not an equal choice it never can provide what breastfeeding does and that is why there is such intense pressure to breastfeed and why so many people want to help mothers keep breastfeeding for as long as possible.
Everyone is trying their best, and telling mothers having a hard time with breastfeeding untruths isn't helping them achieving their goals.
yes everyone does try there best i realise that iwould never tell someone who is stugling to BF to give ther kid a botle however if they had made the decisioni would supriot them 100 percent formular may not be as good as breast milk for some babies but fact is with out it my baby would not have survived that is why i hate all these coments about baycotting it and it being so bad
I really would hate to see any one go through what we have with our DD and believe me when i say in the sceam of things not breastfeeding is the least of my worries, i never understood why people say to me special babies are sorn to special mums but sometimes when i read coments about how some would never consider formular for there babies it makes me understand that statement i am so thankful that i was not so stuborn and arogent about it, believe it or not as good as breast feeding may be its not the be all and end all of being a mum, being amum is about doing what is best for you child no matter what that may be, sometimes breast milk isnt best
our little treasures
15-07-2007, 23:08
It goes both ways. I get sick of people getting all defensive and saying "there is nothing wrong with formula" when someone is asking for help about breastfeeding.
And ridiculous signatures attacking breastfeeders don't help either. Its all sarcasm but the message is obvious.
I also get sick of it as well!!
The signatures just make me laugh, I think who cares!!
I also get very sick of seeing a thread like the boycotting that formula brand and then watching so many other threads about bottle feeding popping up!! There has been a few in the last week.
It's all tit for tat and seems very immature to me!!
christen
15-07-2007, 23:39
Hi all firstly i would like to say a big thanks to all that have posted comments on this thread, but once again it has turned into a breast vs bottle/formula debate! and thats not at all what was intended *spelling!!*
I know that for some of you (me included!!) breastfeeding was/is a difficult and emotional time for both you and bubs and i know there are people out there that are offended by what the pro breastfeeders have to say about formula feeding and that some of you feel that it a personal attack on you. As a bottle feeder i know how this may come across to you but i dont think the breastfeeders are attacking you personally, they are just trying to make a point. One of you made a comment in an earlier post about sarcasm, please be aware that the sarcasm goes both ways.
Someone also made a comment about formula fed babies being less intellegent and more likely to become ill. I dont want to say it is a HUGE generilisation but i do think it is a generalisation, there are i am sure formula fed people out there who are leading academics just as i am sure there are breastfed people out there who are not as intellegent as others.
baylees mummy
16-07-2007, 01:00
im pretty new to this place and what you are all argueing about is really very simple its the mothers choice and we all know whats best for OUR BABY. so leave it at that and keep your opinions to yourself and wait for someone to ask for them or atleast ask if they would like your opinion. if we all do this there should be no probs kwim? i am a proud mummy of a 7 month old boy who was breastfed then formula fed and now on special formula called neocate. he is on that because he cannot digest any other formulas or my breastmilk without vomiting blood or pooping blood and i am happy he is now growing and healthy. please listen to what i have said and there will be far less arguements here. ask before you advise!! :yelclap: :hugs:
christen
16-07-2007, 01:23
hi baylees mummy! i agree with you 100% well said!
im glad your bub is doing well! i always wondered what the formula was for!
Pippi Longstocking
16-07-2007, 06:32
Someone also made a comment about formula fed babies being less intellegent and more likely to become ill. I dont want to say it is a HUGE generilisation but i do think it is a generalisation, there are i am sure formula fed people out there who are leading academics just as i am sure there are breastfed people out there who are not as intellegent as others.
The thing about generalisations is that they are generally true. The science is there to back up this generalisation. The research has been done. A few people's personal subjective anecdotes on an internet forum simply cannot refute that science.
Personal anecdotes do not strengthen a person's argument, they can actually make them appear ignorant and uninformed.
Mikenzee's mum, I understand that you have a child with special needs. I think what may be happening for you is that you are allowing your situation with her to colour your opinion on normal baby feeding. Here's another generalisation - most babies don't need to be tube fed neocate. I have (bottle) fed one of my own children neocate but am fortunate in that I have the capacity to acknowledge that this was not the norm. I do not need to get defensive about it and attempt to justify it and present it in a good light. I did what needed to be done and got on with it. I didn't need to convince others that I did The Right Thing. *shrug*
Where are the facts that say otherwise though? I have 3 very brainy kids who are never sick. My siblings and I were bottle babies and we are all brainy and healthy with no chronic diseases.
Of course they are, why wouldn't they be?
I don't think anyone is saying that if you feed your baby formula you will end up with chronically diseased, feebleminded children :laughing:
Most of us on here were probably formula-fed, it was the done thing back in the day. And we all seem to manage to tie our own shoelaces!
The information is given (rammed down throats in some people's minds) so that giving human milk to human babies becomes more of the done thing than it currently is in this country and formula is used as an excellent substitute rather than the first choice. Because that's what it is - an excellent substitute.
FourAngelKisses
16-07-2007, 08:06
Do you see my point though? Telling people who formula feed their babies that their kids are going to be sick and not as smart etc does nothing but upset people and makes them feel like they are failing as parents. So why say it??
I would never tell a mother who breastfeeds but also smokes or dfrinks that she is damaging her childs health, yet it is seen as acceptable to tell a FFing mum that she is doing the wrong thing by her child by using formula because her child will always be sick?
Not trying to start another debate or anything, but do you see what I mean?
SugarBlossom
16-07-2007, 08:13
I know this annoys some of you, but B/feeding truly was the best thing I could've done for my son.
I still love every feed and hes 2 nowValentine
Hes never had a drop of formula, but has one cows milk drink a day.
I find most formula companies unethical.
They have huge advertising budgets, whereas boobies don't. The ABA is fantastic tho.
I think people think they've failed at b/feeding (not enogh milk etc) because formula is so accesible.
I honestly don't understand why someone would choose to spend a fortune on formula, when the best is free:confused:
I honestly don't understand why someone would choose to spend a fortune on formula, when the best is free:confused:
Id prefer not to spend money on formula but for me personally I did run out of milk both times so I had no other choice to feed my babies
SugarBlossom
16-07-2007, 08:20
Id prefer not to spend money on formula but for me personally I did run out of milk both times so I had no other choice to feed my babies
So thats not CHOICE then is it?
Im not having a go, Just some people would possibly come back and say "seek help" etc YK?
FourAngelKisses
16-07-2007, 08:24
I honestly don't understand why someone would choose to spend a fortune on formula, when the best is free:confused:
Yes it does annoy me. And no I didn't "CHOOSE" anything, I had no choice.
I don't have anything against Breastfeeding mothers, have many friends and relos who breastfeed, some love/loved it some hated it. Good on you if you succeed. that is great.
Some of us don't have a choice and when breastfeeding was unsucessful I had to put bubs on Formula. We are on one wage and Formula is expensive but it is what feeds and sustains my child and they are both thriving kids, so we don't even think about the costs cause We don't have a CHOICE.
Anyway us bottlefeeders are here on our BOTTLEFEEDING thread adn we are being told we are inferior, i think it is a bit odd!!!!! Anyone would think we were on the BReastfeeding thread.
SugarBlossom
16-07-2007, 08:29
Yes it does annoy me. And no I didn't "CHOOSE" anything, I had no choice.
ok....so its irrelevent to you then, and :laughing: to annoying you, read the post properley
FourAngelKisses
16-07-2007, 08:31
I did read it properly. But I do get annoyed when breastfeeders come in here and say "BFing was the best thing I could have done for my child." So because I bottlefed, does that mean I did the worst thing for my child?
SugarBlossom
16-07-2007, 08:37
Tske ikt how you like, its just my thing.
I have had a few moments in motherhood, where silly things have happened and having PND was bad.
But I did/am breastfeed succesfully and I'm so proud of myself and very happy that I could do it for DS.
I'm not saying anything here just too p i s s people off.
I'm sorry that some cannot breastfeed, that sucks, but does happen.
I was just saying those that chose not to breastfeed, must spend a small fortune and whay when breastmilk is free:confused:
some Breastfeeders on here are trying rev us bottlefeeding mothers up I am sure. why can't you just be happy with your decision and be like some other Breastfeeding mothers I know and just worry about yourselves and what is happening with your child.
Little Chookie
16-07-2007, 08:40
Do you see my point though? Telling people who formula feed their babies that their kids are going to be sick and not as smart etc does nothing but upset people and makes them feel like they are failing as parents. So why say it??
I would never tell a mother who breastfeeds but also smokes or drinks that she is damaging her child's health, yet it is seen as acceptable to tell a FFing mum that she is doing the wrong thing by her child by using formula because her child will always be sick?
Not trying to start another debate or anything, but do you see what I mean?
I can see you take it personally when those facts are being presented. When you really shouldn't. I and other people present these facts about increased chronic disease risk, reduced IQ or higher hospitalisation rate in babies fed formula, they are not saying your baby will succumb to this and its all your fault *bad mummy, bad mummy*.
They present them or bring them up so that others are not making the decision to use formula without knowing these things could happen. I would imagine that someone who used formula under the mistaken assumption it is just a simple choice between the two with no potential consequences would be pretty angry when their baby has an anaphylactic reaction or developed type 1 diabetes. These are potential consequences of not breastfeeding, they are not a inference on your parenting ability.
I didn't join in this conversation to make you feel bad or pick on and other formula feeding mothers. I'm sorry you feel upset that these things get brought up, but its just a fact that these consequences need to be discussed so an informed choice can be made (if a choice is to be made).
If we didn't talk about them they would still be a risk its just people wouldn't know about them.
~rambox~
16-07-2007, 08:46
I honestly don't understand why someone would choose to spend a fortune on formula, when the best is free:confused:
Because it is my body and MY choice
I am a bottlefeeder and even I know that breast is best. I love breastfeeding. I love taking a quick look at mums who are breastfeeding. I yurn to breastfeed. I dont think breastfeeding is being thrust down anyones throats BUT what gets my goat is
Can any one person honestly say that formula is as good as breast? Because it sure as **** isnt and I think that what breastfeeding mums are trying to get threw is not that your a bad mum if you bottle feed but breast is best whether you like it or not people.
I am a bottlefeeder and even I know that breast is best. I love breastfeeding. I love taking a quick look at mums who are breastfeeding. I yurn to breastfeed. I dont think breastfeeding is being thrust down anyones throats BUT what gets my goat is
Can any one person honestly say that formula is as good as breast? Because it sure as **** isnt and I think that what breastfeeding mums are trying to get threw is not that your a bad mum if you bottle feed but breast is best whether you like it or not people.
im pretty sure as i sed before ALL MUMS KNOW BREAST IS BEST- but when u cant/dont want to whatever Formula is the next best thing!:)
KarniF00l
16-07-2007, 09:05
There's nothing wrong with information and facts being passed around.
I'm a bottle feeding mum (not by choice) who is very appreciative of those breastfeeding mothers who are providing all the information. I guess I'm too slack to go and seek it myself :o but I have learnt a great deal since joining BubHub in regards to a lot of parenting aspects, and breastfeeding is one of them.
I think it's more-so rude when I see a passionate BFing mum sharing their story, their struggle, facts and information and then you see a FFing mum pretty much sticking their fingers in their ears saying "*Lah Lah Lah* I'm not listening".
Keep sharing the information breastfeeders :yelclap: not everyone knows all the facts and the bits in between!
Kittylou
16-07-2007, 09:08
First of all, I'd just like to say that this may well be true but I think if you look through this thread and any other similar ones on here, you'll find that this has been acknowledged over and over again by the bottle feeding mums so clearly for this particular audience (Bub Hub members) it's not the case.
Secondly, I just want to draw everyone's attention to the statement at the top of this page...
Feeding - bottlefeeding Positive support and help for bottlefeeding issues
ETA: Just to avoid being taken the wrong way, I am all for breastfeeding but my point is that there are places on this forum for women wanting advice, information and support on breastfeeding, this section is for bottle feeding support.
FourAngelKisses
16-07-2007, 09:11
How can we not know. It's plastered all over the formula tins in big bold black writing.
The 'breast is best' gets fed to formula feeding mums almost daily so how could ppl 'not' know! by ppl, midwives- even the formula tins have 'breast milk is best for babies...'
our little treasures
16-07-2007, 09:14
I don't think this thread has got bad but I do think that any new mum coming onto here to decide will probably not read any of this anyway!! It's not a very helpful thread and seems to be a vent thread more than anything else!!
KarniF00l
16-07-2007, 09:28
How can we not know. It's plastered all over the formula tins in big bold black writing.
That may be the case but not everyone knows why breast is best. This is where it's great to know of the 'advantages' of breastfeeding and it's not just to give babies the best nutrition. There's many more advantages. Also, I for one love hearing how our bodies are able to produce such thing to provide babies. The information isn't black and white and so simple.
As I said in my previous post, I am a bottle feeder but I still enjoy reading informative breastfeeding threads and posts. Maybe it's not for everyone (just don't read the posts) but it's great to share those facts because not everyone knows the ins and outs of breastfeeding.
Tam-I-Am
16-07-2007, 09:29
I think this thread has run its course now. I'm closing it after I say this final thing:
Mothers are mothers. We're all doing the best for our children. I think that on a forum this big, we're never all going to agree on any one issue - as demonstrated by the large number of debate threads going on at any one time. There have been a couple of interesting points in this thread though - and from my perspective the most important of these are - if somebody is presenting FACTS that are backed by scientific study and evidence - this is not an attack on an individual or their choices. It is simply the presentation of fact.
Also, please remember that its a mother you're speaking to and about - if you wouldn't say something to her face, don't say it here. If you WOULD say it to her face, but know that it would upset her - DON'T SAY IT HERE. We support ALL mothers here.
Thank you to everybody who contributed in a positive way - I think we've all still got a lot to learn from each other...
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